Episode 7: Afro-indigenous Permaculture with Pandora Thomas

Much of how the modern world is designed and constructed, causes us to be out of sync with the earth’s natural rhythms and systems. In cities, most of the soil is covered with paving and high-rise buildings, which have far-reaching consequences that extend from how water is recycled, to average temperatures, to the levels of asthma and allergies experienced by its inhabitants. Joining us today to talk about these trends and the immense value that can be found in nature is Pandora Thomas, an Afro-Indigenous Permaculturist who runs EARTHseed farm in Sonoma County, California. We discuss the power of nature as a healing tool, how it helped Pandora recover from debilitating mental health issues, and why she has dedicated her life to introducing this healing power to many more individuals, especially people of color. Listening in you’ll hear Pandora share her journey, how she discovered permaculture, and how she raised the funds to support EARTHseed Farm. She unpacks her favorite definition of Afro-Indigenous permaculture and explains how it draws on African traditions of water use and cultivation. We interrogate the way that Black communities continue to be adversely affected by environmental decisions that were not made by them, and some of the important work being done to facilitate more access to nature in those communities. Later, we identify educational opportunities for introducing children to nature, as well as providing them with opportunities to cultivate their gardening skills. Having Pandora on the show was an honor and a joy. We hope you’ll join us for a thought-provoking perspective on Afro-Indigenous Permaculture, the healing power of nature, and how to love the planet!

Key Points From This Episode:

• Introducing today’s guest Pandora Thomas, an Afro-Indigenous Permaculturist.
• Pandora shares her struggles with mental health and why she sees herself as a recovering depressed person.
• The impact that nature has had on Pandora’s mental health journey.
• The concept of spiritual bypassing and the importance of acknowledging that some things are painful and difficult.
• How Pandora became a permaculturist and what that entails.
• Pandora shares her preferred definition of Afro-Indigenous Permaculture.
• How Afro-Indigenous Permaculture is rooted in how we are using and misusing water.
• How the built environments of cities undermine and subvert natural water cycles.
• The important work being done to facilitate more access to nature, especially for people of color.
• How Black communities are adversely affected by environmental decisions that were not made by them.
• How city design and environmental design impact asthma and allergies.
• Why we need to be capitalizing on educational opportunities to teach children about nature and gardening.
• Our host, Wilma Mae Basta, shares the transformative experience of planting and maintaining her own garden.
• How Pandora raised over three million dollars for EARTHseed farm.
• How EARTHseed farm is the culmination of a lifelong dream for Pandora.
• How the Black Lives Matter movement helped Pandora’s fundraising effort.
• How Pandora has dealt with criticisms about her fundraising.
• The importance of acknowledging the value you bring to a project and that you are worthy of abundance.
• How Wilma Mae has changed her priorities to work more efficiently after her experiences with her life being consumed by work during the COVID 19 pandemic.

Links Mentioned in Today’s Episode:

Pandora Thomas

EARTHseed Farm

DRK BEAUTY on Instagram

Transcript

Speaker 1: (00:01)
Welcome to today's episode of the healing home. My guest today is Pandora Thomas, an Afro indigenous permaculturalist who runs earth seed farm in Sonoma county, California. When I met Pandora, about five years ago, I was so drawn to her energy, her beauty and her light. I've always been so excited about the work she's doing and how she's not only helping others to heal. But in fact, through her own work is healing herself all while she cares for her mother who has Alzheimer's nature as a healing tool is becoming a recurring theme. For me, I'm giving much thought to how I craft my life in nature. As I get older, I remember as an exchange student in France in the eighties, the family would take me on many nature trips, much of which I didn't appreciate at the time. In fact, I would often fall asleep in a car when we drove through areas of truly outstanding beauty. I am so sure it was frustrating for them to have this American kid not appreciate the awesome newness of the sheer beauty that they live in. I appreciate it now for sure. And now more than ever as much as I love Brooklyn and New York city, I also have to feed this other part of me that needs to connect deeply with calm and nature. Pandora is my inspiration and my teacher, when it comes to reclaiming my ancestral connection with healing through nature and non-human systems, as she calls it, I really hope you enjoy this episode.

Speaker 2: (01:31)
[inaudible] welcome Pandora. So

Speaker 3: (01:37)
Wonderful to have you here. I am so excited about you being on this episode. Not only because you are an amazing human being, doing amazing things, but you're my friend. So we met, gosh, I feel like it was, was it 2016? Was it was on, it was on, it was summit at sea, I think 2015. Was it 2015? It might've been, I feel like I saw you the first time, maybe at 2015, but you just, you just looked so I don't know, angelic. I just saw you. And I was like, who is that? That vision and who is, I mean, just like pure light coming from you. And I think I was slightly intimidated. I was like, look at, you always had like people around you. Like you had like a tribe of people. It seemed like that just followed. You're like, I'd love to be her friends.

Speaker 3: (02:39)
We grew when we were sitting, that guy talks about how many himself in cold water or whatever Wim Hoff, and you had this gorgeous caftan. I'd never forget that because I was like, you look like a Buddha. You're just like sitting in your caftan, all these people around you. And you're just like, yay. I think that was, that was Ruby wax was actually on the ship that time. She's a British comedian. I think that was 2016. I want to say because that year was because that was the second, the year before I had seen you, but it wasn't really talk. Exactly. And I was like, Ooh, I really want to get to know what her, who she is. What is her story? That smile. I just love that smile. And I think that's when we really connected was that year, it was 2016. Then I had to England and you hosted me.

Speaker 3: (03:40)
And you know, I got to tell the story of how you all really inspired me now, here we are both doing what we told each other we wanted to be doing. Yep, exactly. I mean, and so let's just dive into that. Like, who are you? What are you, what is it that you do? Because I know we can say, okay, you are this leader in permaculture and specifically in Afro indigenous permaculture. But can you tell us a little bit more about what that is? And again, I just want to congratulate you on, are you, I'm so grateful. You're state side closer to me really go stepping into your next iteration of your fantastic. So it's great to witness if part of the question, who am I really feeling? I'm like the daughter of the trees and the soil and my ancestors just, I feel so humbled that I'm still living after the craziness on this planet, but not just to humans, but just to so many beings transitioning.

Speaker 3: (04:56)
So I feel that I'm a mammal trying to be the best man. I can be on this planet aware of my privileges, but also aware of my limitations and my connections daughter of other and sharecroppers. But even more than that, granddaughter of Africans and native Americans, sister, and cousin neighbor, I feel that I'm part of so many amazing communities. Like I said before, I really honor the non-human communities. I'm a part of, so now I'm a dog. Stuart just got a farm dog. I'm a farm farm steward, 14 acres. You pick farm community organizer working with many communities, but as of late, really trying to focus on people of African ancestry in our communities to center our assets and our wisdom as we move through what's happening with our changing climate. So co-conspirator on that. I actually don't use the word ally because for me, ally doesn't express enough how much I want people to be in love with. Like, I want to, I don't want someone to be my ally or me someone's ally. I want them to want me to have the same. They have are better at sometimes the word I like those little watered down. And so co-conspirator to just ground ourselves deeper in what we were meant to be on this planet.

Speaker 3: (06:28)
Oh yes. About permaculture. Well, first of all, let me just say that that's that of who you are when, when, when asked that question, that sounds to me like a really full description. Like you have a good sense of who you are and let's not just, let's not take that for granted because being able to describe who you are is pretty major. I'm not sure that I can, I could do that as succinctly and eloquently as you've just done. So let's just have a moment for that. Thank you. Since this is so much about kneeling, you know, I'm also a survivor of several suicide attempts. I'm, uh, I've been in mental health institutions hospitalized three different times, and I'm a driver of that experience and feel that I can now talk about it. And it really was the trees and the earth that soothed me and kind of allowed me not to be so caught up in the external external world.

Speaker 3: (07:39)
So I feel that I'm a kind of recovering, depressed person, sensitive being on this planet. That felt I was just too sensitive for this crazy. I don't think you can be too sensitive. And first of all, thank you for sharing that. I am always moved when folks feel safe enough to be able to share and be that vulnerable. And so I appreciate that. I think it gives other people hope and helps other people to feel connected to what we're saying, what we're doing in the world. And it's a big deal. Like that's a big deal. This is why we wanted to start this podcast to be able to show people the different ways that one can heal. There's not just one way. And the work that you do with connecting to nature is really impactful. Not only for, it seems to be your life, but others as well with the work that you're doing. And I think when I met you, I'd never heard of permaculture. So I definitely didn't hear about Afro indigenous permaculture. And so I, that's what I really would love to understand one, what it is your journey to finding out about this, what inspired you to really kind of route yourself in this space?

Speaker 3: (09:18)
Well, thank you for acknowledging, yeah. That you need to be able to share the hard things and not be so there's like a frame that people are almost too positive and like everything's meant to be. And if someone, you know, it's like, something's just, something's stuck something just that you can't be like, well, and I'm okay with no some things and getting okay with it. I think they call it spiritual. Bypassing. Someone just said that word to me was my friend's daughter was frustrated that she met someone who was spiritual bypassing. And I was like, what does that mean? And I also am a care partner for my mom with Alzheimer's. I should add that. And I feel like there's a lot of spiritual bypassing around things like that. Like, you know, and for me it's like, you know, no, this is first of all, how my mother's choosing to age and it's hard and it sucks.

Speaker 3: (10:16)
And it's also the most beautiful thing. So it can be all things. And that actually connects to permaculture because there's a few different definitions for permaculture. Many people say it depends on who you're talking to. The definition I love was coined by two dear friends of mine, Lisa DPN and rafter sass Ferguson permaculture is an indigenous design system rooted in ecological knowledge that elevates ecosystem health while meeting human needs. So there's several kinds of keywords in there. The fact that it's rooted in indigenous knowledge, elevates ecosystem, health meeting, human needs, it's all these things that don't have to be counter-intuitive to each other and Afro indigenous probable. First of all, the word African dangerous people. Like what is that? For some people it's like someone of mixed African and indigenous ancestry, which I am, but also for the folks I work with in the reclaiming that we have practices like any person, any group that's been in a place indigenous to a place for long enough that allowed you to start to learn how to live with our non-human systems that give us life.

Speaker 3: (11:36)
And we traveled throughout the diaspora with many of those, whether it's you hear people talk about how our ancestors took seeds in their hair, but not just that like knowledge around cooking and herbs and building design and art and dance. And these, you know, this diasporic expression of us, which dark beauty is, is so linked to somewhere back in the day, someone, you know, did something told a story and we carry it. So Afrin didn't is permaculture really grounds that we can observe how the Earth's ecosystems work and those, and do it in ways that our ancestors specifically of African ancestry have done. And many of the things that we need to do today around our changing climate are rooted in those where we're in the west. Now people are saying we're having a drought. I actually don't talk about it as a drought. I talk about it as a mystery or non-human water kin because instead of honoring and capturing and storing it and redirecting it with honor and using it in a redundant way, we pipe it, we pump it and we pave over it.

Speaker 3: (12:54)
The first we pave over the water and we have to pump it with energy to where we want it to be. So many of our cities today are basically built to get water quickly away from the soil. So instead of being able to go back back into the soil and nourish, because the soil is the best steward of water and all the beings living in soil. And so after is permaculture and just permaculture in general helps us to, I understand the water cycle, not just our city's water infrastructure or talk about things like every, you know, we're in a heat wave or there's going to be monsoon, or there's going to be a drought, but we talk about the earth system and how they work. And so being a heatwave, we are understanding that some of our practice have released more carbon in the atmosphere, and we're not, there's more greenhouse.

Speaker 3: (13:59)
This is in the, in the atmosphere and it's really warming us up because of the things we're doing. It's not just some random thing that has no route or the fact that we're in a drought. It's actually because of how we are living with water, how we're not honoring it. We're not capturing it and storing it and using it as we should. We're overusing it. We're polluting it, all the water that we have on the planet. That's all we have. And so permaculture inspires us to start to understand how do we better live with water? Like I said, store it, we use it. And then what Afro indigenous permaculture would do is help us learn how our ancestors have done that. And I can tell one other story, a man named Bradley, he's a dear friend. He lives in, who was this again? Bradley and caster.

Speaker 3: (14:47)
He is known for using all of this rainwater catchment. And he helps people deal with water crises. In his first book, he talked about how he went to the African continent and learn from a man who only had, I think, a sixth grade level of education in schools, but was this brilliant Waterkeeper. And so, again, it's like so many of our ancestors' stories because they've been verbal or they just haven't been in the mainstream. We're, we're replicating them and we need to reclaim them, but not just them. It's not one of those things. That's also just saying, we need to go back to the good old days, but it's actually like nothing new under the sun type of thing, meaning that yes. And then the Saint Copa. So going back and fetching these things to learn from them, even the things we might feel are challenging and permaculture gives us a set of principles and ethics and a way to observe and interact with our surroundings that is so place-based and allows for emergent relationships with the site so that we can then design how we move forward in ways that is healing to the human and the non-human and all other kids, they think, you know, this is, this is the work like, this is the work that we all need to connect with.

Speaker 3: (16:11)
Not only just to, I think, begin to heal ourselves as individuals, but to understand and have that knowledge as people of color. Because I know for one that I have not always connected to nature or known how to connect to nature and having that touch point is I think really important. And I think as we move forward in the space and the patterns of weather that we're experiencing, it is more important than ever for us to know about the work that you're doing and the work that other folks are doing just to even be in nature. You know, I spoke to this other amazing woman called NILAH blaze, who has an organization called color outside, where she brings women of color to just be outside, to walk in, in Utah in nature and just connect some, you know, really for the first time to make it part of their everyday existence to be in nature.

Speaker 3: (17:21)
Yeah. There's just so many of our communities that have been a dear friend, sister, route map, straight out or Afro. I used to work as a naturalist and an environmental educator, meaning I would get to take people out on these outdoor trips, camping, backpacking, all these things. And again, my family raised me fishing and because of our sharecropper history in the United States, many African-American communities, we had it, it was designed that we were actually designed to be disconnected from that. But it's miraculous that we are still going back to our roots. And there's this saying, we are nature working about humans. I think my son over for GrowCo, who's actually Japanese ancestors said that, but it's this idea that we're not even necessarily going out into nature. We're going back to who we are and the earth and nature cycles needs us because we are an animal part of it.

Speaker 3: (18:22)
But we've been so simplified and building, you know, just tonight, we don't even feel safe, not being inside some closed space. And so having this farm to steward and teach us, it's been powerful because like you asked me if I had headphones, I was like, I don't even have headphones anymore because you don't really need headphones. I kind of don't have the little trinkets for, because I'm spending so much time, but it's a very different rhythm. I just truly believe it's what we, we will not be able to continue as a human species if we do not understand how to better live with each other, but with the earth, like with the systems that give us life and it's gotta be relevant and inspiring and funky and cool and grown and sexy, you know, it's gotta be all the things. So that's another part of the journey. I feel like how to show our folks that this, this is ours.

Speaker 3: (19:27)
I think that's important when you have a culture now where we are so connected to social media. I know you switched out of that a while ago. And even just being off our phones, being away from, and also having been in locked down, like for me, I know just the last year of just being indoors and then venturing outside again, there was a lot of anxiety around that and I felt like I couldn't get access to nature and in an easy way, because I'm in the city and that really impacted my mental health in the last year. I mean, we're going to talk about the farm in a minute, cause that's just so impressive to me. But you had access to nature this past year, I believe. And so how do you feel like your, your, how do you feel that your mental health has fared since you, you suffered a breakdown and were hospitalized?

Speaker 3: (20:27)
And do you mind me asking when, when did that happen? How long ago that was in two. Okay. That 20 years ago it was kind of literally 20. You only look about years old. I just want to say I was 28 about to turn 29. So 20 years ago, excuse me. And I have to say, I, I quit the job I had and I took a job as a naturalist where I started 16, $6 and 50 cents. So I always say I took a 75% pay cut, but what it did was allowed me at the time I didn't have any other, I just was taking care of myself. I became an actress. I was the only black naturalist for the organization that I worked with. I think there was one other woman who I eventually I Racia and we would just travel around and do backpacking and climbing, camping trips.

Speaker 3: (21:35)
And that's what really, I think I grew up also doing outdoor stuff, but just seeing that it could be my, my life and what I did on purpose. That's what kind of was like, okay, I'm never not doing this again. And then I realized my career has grown. People ask you to do that less because they asked you to come and speak or whatever, just all the things. And I think getting the farm too has been a goal of like, wait, no, I it's what heal means. I have to honor that. And that's my biggest wish for people is that either bringing indoors in, or just surrounding ourselves with non-human kin so that we, you know, I'm looking at that plan. It's like, it's not even blue. It's real, it's like life it's surrounding yourself with life and breath because of so much pollution. So many of our communities cleansing the air so that we can think and dream and be as creative as everybody else because not having access to that's having an impact on our ability to even solve our own life issues.

Speaker 3: (22:47)
You actually can't think as clear, like, so it's so tied into how the black community has not been able to be the ones to solve so much of what we deal with because our cities and towns that, and they've been designed that way. That's everything. It's not just because we don't care about these stuff. Intentionally. We've been designed into certain areas and not do you know what I just learned about? I'm about to introduce a concept, botanical sexism, say that again, sexism. So it turns out part of the reason there's heightened allergies right now is because back in the day, when urban landscaping was making decisions about kind of reforesting cities, they chose to plant more male species of trees because the female, they didn't want the seeds or the fruit to draw. So Colin, basically the tree's sperm floating all over and there's not enough female trees to catch it.

Speaker 3: (23:52)
Wow. So there's, I forget his name, but he talks about it as botanical. A lot of people don't want to take that on because they're like, it's not the same. And I'm like, yo, so had we chosen worth female species trees. We would not be dealing with this cause we would just be dealing with a bunch of fruit and seeds. But so many seeds cities are having what they're calling like the Pall and optical Aquila, like a problem, not Calypso, or you say it and that's, that's been designed, put it out there that it wasn't a bunch of black planners and black landscape books doing this. But think about the rates of asthma and all of these things that we are now more negatively affected with. So not just going into the nature in nature of the outdoors, but like learning about that, the design and my niece in Atlanta, she met a woman who's trying to actually plant more female trees because of this. And these are black folks. So this knowledge that's been hidden from us. That's about life or death, but we're not able to work right now because of things that they deal with health issues that have been brought about by these environmental decisions that were not making.

Speaker 3: (25:07)
It's interesting that you say that because when I moved back to New York in 2017, it was in 2018. I had my first summer back here in Brooklyn and I had never experienced allergies in my life. And mainly I think because one I've lived abroad in England, which is definitely a country of greenery, right? That's even London for the most part has beautiful stretches of parks and greenery. And historically the nature part of the UK is intact in my opinion, but also where I grew up, which was outside of Philadelphia, that was, I lived in nature. I eat the suburbs, but I was surrounded by forests and green. So I, I never, I personally never experienced that. And then in 2018, when something may June, July, I started getting like allergy type symptoms for the first time I'm in my fifties. And I just thought it was just the air in New York.

Speaker 3: (26:16)
But I don't remember that when I lived in New York in the eighties for sure. And it was very different. And so when you said that, I thought, oh, okay, now I get it. Because of course there's a dark many trees. I'm in an urban landscape. There are very few trees around where I live and I robotically. I saw there is a park near me and I saw they were planting. I was a big track and they were planting on the side of this running track. And I stopped to ask the guys what they were doing. And they said, oh, we're planting some trees and some bushes so we can attract the bees back. I said, oh, that's interesting. And it's just a small patch on the side of this, this running track. But I thought, oh, that's good that they're doing that. I guess when you say this, maybe people they're starting to realize that there's, there's, you know, obviously there's an issue and they need to do something about it, even if it's in small ways.

Speaker 3: (27:16)
Absolutely. And you know that right there is for pollinators because so many of our bee population is being impacted and the bees jar, I mean, there's so many jobs, but back to the trees, they are one of the crucial pollinators. So carrying the pollen to ensure that the species of trees continues like that's one of the ways birds, it's also humans, wind insects, pollinators, help, tree species continue. And so not just having a male species of trees, but also not having pollinators it's all. And our communities like in school, there was a big push, at least in California for like environment education at all grades. But just think about it like, well, if you were taught these things, you might've been taught, but then it wasn't revisited. And then it was taught very siloed. So it's like doctors should be learning these things so that when they're helping our communities, they're able to help us make changes that are linked to that.

Speaker 3: (28:27)
California has this other thing. Friends of mine started called park prescriptions where doctors prescribed time in the outdoors. And part of that is to deal with some of the health issues we're bringing up now. But also just to reclaim that nature is what is healing, because it's who we are. And then imagine if our communities could then be seeing ourselves as designers and not just the ones kind of impacted by it. Like you said, you saw that those schools working on that, that's our job to really redesign our communities in ways that can be beneficial. And it's possible, you know, it's interesting because now that you have mentioned this and now it's recalling some of the things in my neighborhood that I've recently started to witness. So for example, I live across the street from my high school. And even though this is a somewhat gentrified say somewhat, it is a gentrified area.

Speaker 3: (29:26)
The high school across me as is generally black and brown folks, uh, young kids that go there. And I noticed a few weeks ago that there's this perimeter around the high school. I noticed it before obviously, but the were, they're learning how to plant and to grow vegetables and plant different species of green gorgeousness that they are then they're out there like every week it seems with, I guess it must be, uh, I'm not sure if it's one of the teachers or if they brought someone else in and it looks like, you know, they've taken a real interest in it and that they're out there every week. Just making sure the plants are looked after intended to, I'm sure they still have to deal with rats, but, um, it's New York, but you know, there, it's out there and it's really nice. It's really beautiful. And you know, the thing I was going to say was that for me personally, I have, I love nature now, but I always still have to force myself because I tend to be an introvert.

Speaker 3: (30:28)
And so I might, I might very easily just lock myself inside for months and B think I'm okay. But when I actually get out into nature, I have this real true sense of how my soul feels lifted and heightened. And, and yet it's, I was saying this before that if I didn't experience nature in these different ways that I do now until I actually experienced it, I don't know that I miss it. So I wonder if, does that make sense to you? Because like I've always considered myself a nice, again, this is me telling myself this all the time, which is I don't have a green thumb. I have told myself that for decades until we recently bought our apartment. And I think I showed, did I show you what we did? And I was so proud of myself. I have this outdoor area, which is surrounded by planters. And because I was renting, I didn't bother to plant it. There were a few plants in there that kind of come up every summer, but I was like, why would I spend all this money to replant it? If I don't own it? And then the summer I said to my husband, I said to Victor, I said, Hey, we should get someone in to plant it for us. That was my first thought, get someone else's right. That was the first thing. Cause I'm bougie.

Speaker 3: (32:02)
But then when I actually called up a Brooklyn somewhat, I don't know, what do we call them a plant or something like that? Yes. They were literally somewhere, a few neighborhoods away and they didn't come and do my neighborhood. They don't work in my neighborhood. I was like, well, that's great for you that your business is so good. But it was because of that, that I said to Victor, you know what, screw it. We're going to plant it ourselves. And he's like, sure, okay, we'll do it. I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing, but it can't be that hard. We went out and spent an afternoon choosing plants and we got some advice from the local nursery on what would be good and what wouldn't for that particular area. And we got the wheelbarrow, we got some bags of dirt. We put the plants and we brought them back of me and Victor literally planted ourselves.

Speaker 3: (32:57)
Now I know that everything is laughable, but, and I know it's almost going to make me cry, actually plants it. And I'm sitting there going at first. I was like, oh God, my hands are gonna be dirty. And then I was like, oh, this feels good. Like, I liked my fingers in the dirt. And it was something almost sexy about it. Right. It was because it's so visceral. It's so tactile. And I got, and then I got into it and then I felt, then I felt the connection to the plant. Okay. So this is what I was talking taught. If I didn't know that you really could have a connection to a plant. I didn't know that really before, like I knew that intellectually, but I'd never actually felt it. And just my little group. And then we got everything in and we stood back and we looked at it and both of us, we were so proud of ourselves. And then I started watering it. And then I split got excited about going out every morning to see if I could see any growth. And then who was doing well, we have a Japanese maple we think is not doing well. Me and Victor were like, oh, we think we need to, we need to move him this. Should we move that right now? Or should we wait? And we gotten obsessed now with our little garden and taking pictures of it and sending it to Victor. When he's back in London, I'm like, look, this one's flowering.

Speaker 3: (34:29)
And it's like, for the first time I feel this connection. And I sit out there and I work outside in the patio every day because it feels so amazing to sit with my little jungle in the back and to look at it. And it's just my little patch of nature. And I don't think I'd ever, and I see like my other aunties who post pictures of, you know, they're doing their garden. Be like, oh, that says sweet. And before I was like, oh, that's so nice. And that's something you do in your old. And then I started doing it and I went to my aunt de LA and I was like, Hey, I know I'm really intrigued by what you're doing and the plants that you're cultivating. So there there's I get it. Like I get it. Now it took a while.

Speaker 3: (35:14)
How about yourself though, from that? Cause like you just that's literally it like what you just described. It's my life's purpose to assure people back to that truth. That is not even about me. It's about you. Yeah. I think, I think the thing is, is you are discovering another facet of yourself. And I like that. I like discovering another facet of myself that I'm uncovering for the first time through small adventures, through big adventures. Right? Like I told, I talked to another episode about my introduction to skiing and that's another way of being in nature for me. And I fell in love with that after learning in my late thirties and had been again, telling myself in there to get that black people don't ski until my higher self said, screw that if that five-year-old can ski past you, I can do it too. Right.

Speaker 3: (36:22)
And so when I had that moment, when the, the landscape gardener turned me down, I was like, screw it. I can do it. My self be the biggest gift. That landscape, because that's also going back to permaculture is this idea of us being designers and that we are already designer like you, I mean, come on just, you are a designer Supreme from your life to your house, to your clothes, you know, every day, even the outfit you wear, it's a step. It's how we even learn how to walk. You designed a process based off of observation, you know? And so how do we reclaim that? So the world isn't just happening to us. We do also have all of these stories, which is a little bit of the tension that is black people. They're stories like we didn't even make up, but we keep telling them or seeing them or speaking them.

Speaker 3: (37:19)
And then that becomes, I used to be a snowboarder. I started 35 years ago. And so that I was like, one of the cars I was skateboarder and I don't know what it is. I credit my parents cause things that I, I would just do stuff or I don't care if it's not what, and that also, I feel like as a privilege, but what we need to re re up in our communities like any, we can't be our own voice of saying what we can't do because there's a whole planet out there trying to tell us what we can't or shouldn't do. And so this idea of, that's why I say again, being ecological, caring about the earth, it needs to be sexy because we are sexy, beautiful people and relevant for us and good for old and young. And that's another thing that with Z consulting business I had with my business partner, that then became the farm.

Speaker 3: (38:14)
We would say to black folks, you know, the world is looking at us to tell them about USIC fashion. Hey, you know, why shouldn't it be looking to us to tell them the things that we literally were doing in the past, but it was ripped from us. And so your story, like that's why dark beauty can be the space because the emergent relationship you had with how plants are healing you, that really is a ticket. And I'm going to probably say that it costs less then going on some trip to some green Oasis, which we should still do, or, you know, all the other things that we do to pay, to help us, these simple living beings that are wild surrounding us, but want to be in our homes, they're here. And that's what they do without even much input. Like, think about how much you had to do to really build that garden and how much more you're getting. Did you plan anything that's edible? No, but I'm thinking about it now. A few people have asked me, they're like, you should put some tomatoes out there.

Speaker 3: (39:22)
I think it was you. And I was like, I'm like, what are the easiest things that probably won't even if they die, you'll still be able to harvest from them. That's what I would start with. You can get quick gratification and then just appreciating, you know, this is from someone who now has 4,000 trees. Wow. But I eat my are mulberries for breakfast or raspberries or blackberries. We actually have more fruit than I can even need to people. So. Okay. Wait, wait, wait. Before we go down that road, let's just back up. Let us just talk about earth, seed farm. Is it art seed, farm or farms? It's a farm for now.

Speaker 3: (40:13)
Let's just talk about the journey to earth seed farm, and how did that germinate in your life and how you raised $2.7 million and a bit more than that? About 3 million, how much advice, but, you know, I know that has its own challenges for sure. But where did that, where did the idea to have a farm start? The dream? Just as long as I can remember, I knew I was to live with piece of land more intimately. And actually I'd always wanted to turn that land back over to the indigenous people of the area or have them honor it. And I could say that happen at, or exceed with our, my dear brother. And we really did a blessing and was really honoring as stewarding it. Um, and the most recent, I mean, cause I didn't know when this was going to happen. And with my mom, I was like, I can't move out of the city, but right.

Speaker 3: (41:17)
Post COVID. And when bless his spirit, George, the whole George thing happened and all these people were trying to give black people money. I had a friend that was like, are you working on anything Pandora that people really want to donate? And I was like, yeah, I'm getting land. And again, this is something I had already been thinking of. But a few weeks later I had $20,000 from literally a very basic website that was, I didn't have it worked out, but I did have it worked out. I just hadn't started to set the infrastructure for it. And then other people that I've been working with were like, yeah, this is the time. And I would say, that's what, COVID also just all the time. Not out a bunch of people. I did spend a lot of time in the outdoors. I would take my mom masked to the redwoods.

Speaker 3: (42:06)
We would just do this dry. We would visit this farmer's market that I just have to say, I might actually be selling them fruit, which is crazy. This farm stand and the Casio near San Rafael, California. It was our little week ago by our fruit drive to the redwoods drive to the ocean and then go home. Like, that was what we did every Friday, the entire and the farm we bought is part of that route. So it's also the miracle of like that journey we would take to our teacher part home. But I think it was just time. Like, you know, people keep sending the articles about black and I'm like, you don't understand me, I'm living this. So you don't have to tell me about the New York times, but I'm like, please stop sending me stuff. That's just black people saying what I know you don't talk about. It's like your friend selling and you black therapy articles. Right.

Speaker 3: (43:05)
Everybody's so excited. Cause they're like, and I'm like, yeah. So all the people that funded this have a relationship with me or either I know them, you know, and I can say like the summit community that we met, I'm a member of this place, the battery and my more activists, friends have poo-pooed cause I'm one of those people like, wait, what? I love people. And I don't care just because you have money that doesn't make you a bad person. Right. So because you took money from wealthy people because I'm a member at places that, that like the battery's given me access to people. Oh yeah, no, we're not. We don't subscribe to that. This is where I have to tell the you and Victor story when I came to London and I was telling you all, you know, cause the permaculture community is a little bit more dispersed, less financed in that way.

Speaker 3: (44:00)
Cause a little bit of a rogue movement and working in the permaculture community, you, you're just not expected to ask for, to be paid a lot and all this stuff. And I remember telling you all and you were like, why aren't you working and sharing the gifts, what you have to bring with the engineers or the world or the folks that really are getting connected. And I started kind of integrating that in and my little mantra and my design. And then that's what started happening. I started being the person, bringing what I bring in rooms with engineers and architects. I'm not saying I really want to be doing that anymore and I'm not going to, but at least it showed me, wait, what I'm bringing is just as valuable as what they're bringing. And I can charge that amount. And I think that had to happen to even open me up to the idea that I could raise $3 million in a month because I'm even like, and I joked with my friend he's our fiscal sponsor is a nonprofit. He was holding all of our grants and he was like, Pandora, million-dollar check just came in the mail. There's so many zeros I don't even know. And I think that's part of that activates kind of black revolution. Yeah. Well you need to get used to that because why can these yahoos doing the shenanigans have access to this concept and we don't, and we'll actually do stuff that's going to benefit everybody.

Speaker 3: (45:25)
So membership at the battery, being in these rooms with people who are more comfortable access like you and others through summit, that's what allowed us to get this far. So yeah. So the really important piece of the story that I try to let people know in a way that feels good to you. It's not selling out, selling out is thinking that we shouldn't have it. Yeah. You know, there's a whole, I think misinformation around money when it comes to things that are more active or more earth days kind of thinking that they think they're two separate things. If we acknowledge that being connected to the earth is an energetic manifestation, right? That connection, we feel the same is true of money. Money is an energy. That's what I was brought up to believe that we talk about intentioning and manifestation and people talk about, I want to get that money or people talk about money's terrible.

Speaker 3: (46:34)
And you know, you shouldn't, or it's it's it's it's, it goes against what you sh what you're doing. And you know, you know, you need to focus on just the connecting to the earth and not tainted with money, which frankly is some because money is energetic. The relationship with money is energetic. And when we get clear on that, and by the way, I still have work to do on that for myself. But when we get clear on opening up those doors, the money is the thing that allows it to happen. There is also the energy of turning bad money into good that I believe, right? I'm not saying people have to accept money from dictators, right? Just saying that if we, if we say no to all the money, if it's flowing to us that we don't have the opportunity to shift that energy into something that actually helps and becomes positive and moves forward as right.

Speaker 3: (47:31)
So I believe that we, in order for us to do the work, we not only have to be in these spaces that are not necessarily natural for us. They're natural for me because I grew up in a lot of white spaces, right. I'm used to being the only black person in the room and it doesn't phase me. And it's part of my, of who I am because I am black, but I have grown up in white environments. So it's never been, my children are mixed race. So this is not a problem for me. And I understand why it is for a lot of folks, but here's the thing in order for me to move forward, I have to be in all these different spaces in order to actually do the work that I'm doing. And so that means that unlistened summit has been amazing for us, both me and my husband and the people that I've met you through summit.

Speaker 3: (48:21)
I met some, some of my dearest friends over the last six years I met through summit. And so I feel like those are important places for us to be in. I think that changing our energy in relationship with money and how we can transmute that energetic manifestation of it into something really positive is really important for us to understand embrace and do. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I mean, and I am on the wrong because any it's like, yeah, it's been interesting because like he, like, I've just been the person in rooms. And I also don't tend to think of what I can't do. I know that's been tough. Like, you know, I'm like, oh, I just found out about this, oh, here's an example, a tree house or just tree house. I saw it on Airbnb and I rented it and people were like, wow, you just I'm like, I don't know what it is in me that I'm like, if there's something beautiful that I want to be a part of, I could like give that my mom lots of time.

Speaker 3: (49:37)
I'm like, oh, well I don't think of all the other stuff. So that in that way, I'm just drawn towards the pleasure of beautiful things. And that has gotten me in places and in rooms, because be sitting there and be like, okay, this is really funny, but I don't know how I ended up here. And these people, I don't know, but I love the people and they let you know all the things as a black person, we do need to be safe and keep ourselves safe from harm of things. But the idea that that's not being around people with money, I'm like glad people have money. Why we will learn are. So that's the other thing. And calling ourselves poor and the mid, the labels we give ourselves, how do we acknowledge the challenges, the financial crazy capitalist system that we're in. And like you said, transform it in ways that meets the needs of more people like, yeah, that's it. I mean, that's it getting grants too? And I'm like, okay, this is really crazy people, but I think it's because we need it. And what we're doing is actually already people are coming and they're like, this farm is the most healing place I've ever been. You know, it's like, okay, I want to have a dark beauty field trip to earth seed farm.

Speaker 3: (51:02)
So we're looking for partnerships. That's the other piece of Afro indigenous it's like defining it on our own terms. So the dark beauty experience or exceed might be different than my friend. Walway, who's a Kenyan artist. He wants to do an activity where we bring artists, um, to Earthseed for, you know, so again, it's like, how can the farm also shift the idea of what you're supposed to do at a bar, but just bringing almost the art and the culture to the farm and let that define what a orchard could be for our folks. So I'm excited. That's kind of the lifetime of earth seed and yes, already, I'm going to be honest too well, cause I go there and I'm like, okay, wait, I can't believe that like we have a house in the country. I never dreamed, but it feels like the earth is asking me to dream big because our people need to see examples of it and step into something that is better for everybody.

Speaker 3: (52:08)
You are truly manifesting abundance. I mean, this is what this looks like when we get out of the way of ourselves. And we allow, we allow the gifts to come through and learning how to get out of the way of ourselves as part of is that biggest part of doing of the problem, right? If we can learn how to do that and we can start to believe in ourselves and we can start, we can stop. You know, just, even for me over the years, learning how to stop the negative messaging going on in my head, right. To say, to even go, this is possible, right? And so, you know, I'm proud of you. I am in all of you, you are one of the most beautiful souls and you know, in, in the world. And I believe that you are at the next chapter of an amazing path in your life, right?

Speaker 3: (53:05)
This, that this is gonna open up a whole new, this stuff that other people can experience this in a way that will be so truly healing and impactful in people's lives. I'm I talk about you all the time to Victor about how, how proud I am from that time when we were in London together and that talk had, I think I let, I let some fire under your, just keep saying that you have step into and as black women too, I think just honoring you, you know, you're not an elder because I keep forgetting how old I'm like, are you even older than we are? Where, where within 10 years of each other? I think, I think you, I don't know if you notice about yourself, even at the summit, you hold such a Regal, maybe because you're like a parent, the grown children, grown-ass children, you were always looking out for everybody.

Speaker 3: (54:06)
You were like on the boat, even like, okay, it's a little bit of that haphazard. I'm just it. But you were like, no, okay. I need to rest. And that's how you, that's what I want for you. Like I know I talked to him in January and I was like, oh, this is not what dark booty. And that's the crazy thing. How are you going to be launching a healing nourishing thing? And then you're not even feeling healing in there. This is it. And I that's part of the reason where I got to the point where I've made some very clear changes and decisions. And one of them was I was going to stop fundraising because as I've said before, I believe that a lot of the investors that I either asked for meetings or took meetings, had zero intention of investing and that was draining.

Speaker 3: (55:03)
And it took time away from me building the business. But also I, you know, working for me goes, as a founder, goes beyond a nine to five, Monday to Friday on my brain is always thinking about the business. And that is draining when I don't, I feel almost frightened to turn my brain off, to just think about nothing or enjoy other parts of my life. And this past year has been so intense from the day we launched dark beauty to healing and we didn't focus on the for-profit side of the business at all. We didn't have the space to do that. And so it was this intense work. And I, I worked while I had, COVID not a good look, you know, not a good look. And so I made that decision earlier in the year that okay, just for now, for the next few months I was going to stop working in the mornings.

Speaker 3: (56:03)
None of my team could contact me before noon, unless it's an emergency. And I started that, I think in April, April, may and may, maybe it was around may I started and it was a game changer. It was a game changer. I feel like a human again. My brain feels like it's come back online and I actually get more done. Do you work? Like, do you have 12 till six or six? And we actually have made more progress as a result, you know, a lot mostly behind the scenes. But you know, I think that that has, has taught me a powerful lesson. I have historically been a workaholic and it doesn't actually bring like, produce anything more. I might like do more, but it actually isn't producing more. So, you know, that's kind of part. So I'm starting to gradually put other things in to that time and that space in the mornings, and it's not doing something per se, it might just be the meditation. It might be, I bought some roller skates.

Speaker 3: (57:12)
So I have them. I bought them that step one, step two is that she putting them on and going out skating. So I haven't quite reached that yet, but it's been a couple of days. So that's the next step is just sometimes in the mornings. I'll just go out and do a little roller skate in the park and revisit my youth research is totally supports everything you're saying it's not about working more. It's about working more efficiently and more in alignment. So that makes me so happy. I'm happy to witness that too. So I just want to round up today. We literally, I could talk to you forever, but I just, first of all, want to say thank you for making the time. I know I can imagine how incredibly busy you are running a farm and I'm so excited for your first harvest. I wish I was there to sample some of the fruit, but I will be, you will be.

Speaker 3: (58:13)
And thank you so much for this. I think that you dropped some amazing gems today, and I think hopefully people will have a little takeaway about how to connect with nature. Where's the best place for people to connect with you? I know you're not a big social media person, so how can they best find you in the work that you're doing? Go to my website, Pandora, thomas.com and see, and then also bird seed, farm.org. And then my number, my emails there, and you want to donate to the farm or even just reach out if you're local and would like to find out about our you pick programs. Those are the two best ways. Yeah, no, that'd be Facebook or any of that.

Speaker 3: (58:56)
That's fine. I don't think you need to be a social media. I mean, the whole point is that people come to you and actually engage in nature rather than follow you on social media. But, um, so, you know, I just realized, we didn't say actually where you are, so where are you? So today, right now I'm working out of Berkeley. I think it's Sheila and Aloni land. And then our farm is up in Sonoma, which is camo, Sonoma county and Sebastopol asadero watershed great and reentry and tribal lands. So yeah, that's where I go back and forth. Me and my mom. Amazing. Thank you so much Pandora. And I noticed, I love you too. And I know there is a dark beauty field trip retreat in our future.

Speaker 1: (59:45)
I'm working on a babe. I love you. Thank you for listening to today's podcast, the healing home. I really hope you enjoyed it. I'd like to leave you with one last thought today from the 18th century, German poet, playwright and novelist, Johann Wolfgang Von Gurta in nature. We never see anything isolated, but everything in connection with something else, which has before it, beside it, under it and over it, please subscribe to our podcast and share with your friends. We'd love for you to join our community and also share your constructive feedback. You can also find us on instagram@thisisdrkbeautyonfacebookgroupsatfacebook.com forward slash groups forward slash DRK beauty and our website. This is Dr. beauty.com. We also deliver free therapy to women of color through our nonprofit initiative, dark beauty healing. We have over 120 clinicians in our network who have donated 10 or more hours of pro bono therapy to explore therapy for yourself. Please visit our website and click on the link to our dark beauty healing directory. There you can find your state and explore the directory to connect with participating clinicians. If you feel emotionally or mentally unsafe and in need of urgent assistance, please immediately contact 9 1 1 or the national crisis hotline by dialing nine, eight, eight on your phone or calling 1-800-273-TALK that's 1 802 7 3 8 2 5 5 in the unit [inaudible].